Animal Rights?

While doing a little researching on a local meat processor, I came across the website www.finalnail.com. This came up because I've recently become a lot more concerned with the food I feed my family. The unsafe industrial processes that most of our food, as Americans, goes through is shocking (more on that later). Anyway, I purchased a pig from a local farmer, and was checking out the processor he recommended. So I typed Tooele Valley Meats into google to see what would come up. Just slightly down the results page, after the directory listings, was this website. I thought, hmm, final nail, if there was anything bad to be said about this business, it might be listed here.

Turns out this site is a listing of furriers, trappers, lab animal suppliers, and 'slaughterhouses' or meat processors. I'm not sure where they get their information for sure but after a little digging, it appears their source is federal, maybe some regulatory database of some kind. I was concerned that my potential processor was on this list so I sent an email. It was very simple, I subjected it Question, then wrote "How do you know that every business on this list abuses their animals? Is there a watchdog organization you rely on?" They responded, "Thanks for the e-mail. We do not make any claims about specific businesses. But we do believe that fur farms, slaughterhouses and businesses that provide animals for vivisection are inherently cruel and exploitive. We hope that our website will encourage people to take a closer look at businesses in their community.".

After that, I did a little research on them. It turns out that they've been connected multiple times to animal rights activists who have committed crimes targeting these businesses. Locally here, they were connected to incidents where mink farms nearby, had their animals 'released back into the wild'. I wonder how those minks are doing now? Were they able to adapt to their new environment? Could they find food and shelter? More likely, they starved to death, slowly. A death which, I think would be less preferable to the quick and presumably humane death at the furriers. It's also possible that some of them were hunted and eaten by local wildlife, which brings up another point, what about the natural balance of the ecosystem of the area?

What effect would releasing those mink into that habitat have?

It is my feelings that websites like the finalnail bring violence to corrupt and honest business alike. The finalnail of course has a legal disclaimer claiming they don't encourage illegal behavior, but I never saw anywhere where they discouraged it either.

I was eventually able to find some positive information on the processor I'll be using, my meat will be delivered on March 3rd. I'll leave a comment and let you know how it goes.

There is one group however I think does need an advocate, and I would like to bring it to the attention organizations like the finalnail. Fruits and vegetables have long been abused and exploited by both man and beast. All you vegans out there thought you had the moral high ground but you have treated poor fruits and vegetables horribly just because they don't have faces! They live, they grow, they breathe, they reproduce, and what do you vegans do? You cut them down, you dig them up and you eat them! You even often eat their children! What kind of monsters are you?

I love, love, love my family

Original message forwarded by my dad (Lee):

HB 1388 PASSED


You just spent $20,000,000 to move members/supporters of Hamas, a terrorist organization, to the United States ; housing, food, the whole enchilada.

HB 1388 PASSED

Whether you are an Obama fan, or not, EVERYONE IN THE U. S. needs to know....

Something happened.... H.R. 1388 was passed, behind our backs. You may want to read about it.. It wasn ' t mentioned on the news... just went by on the ticker tape at the bottom of the CNN
screen.

Obama funds $20M in tax payer dollars to immigrate Hamas Refugees to the USA . This is the news that didn ' t make the headlines...

By executive order, President Barack Obama has ordered the expenditure of $20.3 million in "migration assistance" to the Palestinian refugees and "conflict victims" in Gaza .

The "presidential determination", which allows hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with ties to Hamas to resettle in the United States , was signed and appears in the Federal Register.

Few on Capitol Hill, or in the media, took note that the order provides a free ticket replete with housing and food allowances to individuals who have displayed their overwhelming support to the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) in the parliamentary election of January 2006.

Let's review....itemized list of some of Barack Obama ' s most recent actions since his inauguration:

His first call to any head of state, as president, was to Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah party in the Palestinian territory.

His first one-on-one television interview with any news organization was with Al Arabia television.

His first executive order was to fund/facilitate abortion(s) not just here within the U. S. , but within the world, using U. S. tax payer funds.

He ordered Guantanamo Bay closed and all military trials of detainees halted.

He ordered overseas CIA interrogation centers closed.

He withdrew all charges against the masterminds behind the USS Cole and the "terror attack" on 9/11.

Now we learn that he is allowing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refuges to move to, and live in, the US at American taxpayer expense.

These important, and insightful, issues are being "lost" in the blinding bail-outs and "stimulation" packages.

Doubtful? To verify this for yourself:
www.thefederalregister.com/d.p/2009-02-04-E9-2488

PLEASE PASS THIS ON...AMERICA NEEDS TO KNOW

WE are losing this country at a rapid pace.

Reply by my Uncle (Jay):

Looks like these are refugees FROM Hamas, whose only "ties to Hamas" are that they were victims of the organization and are likely to be again. The money is in an existing fund.

I wonder who this "we" is that is losing this country?

Reply by my Uncle (John):

The WE is everyone who values freedom over social engineering; who wants government out of the way, not blocking the road so everone goes equally slowly. It is those of us who want to earn our own money, and keep it. The next guy can earn his and keep it too. He's not entitled to mine, and I'm not entitled to his. It is the people who think that maybe, just maybe, the founders of this country had some pretty good ideas, and Karl Marx did not. Granted, we seem to be a minority any more.

Reply from my Uncle (Jay):

John, thanks for your prompt and frank reply. I learned when I was in the NRA and the GPAA that people speak differently when they think there are no strangers present.

You can rest easy, because you aren't losing America. You never owned it, any more than anyone else. Your opinions were even in the minority among the founders - Jefferson and Adams wrote prominently as you do, the others disagreed to greater or lesser extent. Jefferson did not even believe in a standing army.

Your viewpoints are important and need to be a part of the political scene. Getting upset over anti-Hamas immigrants or accusing those with contrary opinions of being Marxist doesn't add anything constructive.

Small problems left untreated become big problems. When any substantial part of society has big problems, they become your problems too. This has happened many times in history; Jack London traveled with a "hobo army" that basically stripped every town they went through, on their way to Washington. For famine and government abuse, read about the Irish potato famine. Whole families starved to death on the roadside - who buried them? What about disease?

What if something happened in your area? Do you think anyone would respect your rights if it meant watching their families suffer? You can't just shoot everyone; someone has to clean up the mess.

You might think of government programs as protection money or extortion. I think of them as preventive maintenance or a vaccination. Some like to imagine that the poor are lazy and don't want to work. There is no truth to that. If it were so, I'd vote with you.

Jay

Reply from my dad (Lee):

Just a couple of points, Jay…the founders made an agreement even though they disagreed. That is the America we are losing now. What was seen as the proper role of good government has been changing since the early 20^th century. The role these people want to force down our throats would push governmental power past the tipping point where tyranny is probable and means of the people to resist problematical.

The “poor” aren’t really a homogenous group. There are as many reasons for being poor as there are people. The only thing stopping some people from a good life is to look facts in the face and take those actions needed to prosper. Some people drink, others refuse to relocate to where the jobs are, others laugh their way through school and are as ignorant coming out as they were going in. These aren’t random happenstance, and I don’t owe these people a dime.

It would be like me buying land in the middle of the Salt Desert and demanding Washington do something about the bad soil and lack of water.

Another point: This government hasn’t ever been able to do that preventive maintenance or vaccination without creating more problems than it solves. I seriously doubt the solutions this government (as opposed to any particular administration)comes up with that offsets the almost certain disaster that giving that power to the feds would mean.

Another point: Helping your needy neighbors doesn’t require government. It’s not an either/or solution. People have been helping each other over the rough spots a long time before our government existed. I promise you that if someone hungry went to your brother John’s door and asked for food, he’d feed them, if he didn’t need it to feed his own. I won’t describe my Church’s program as I’m sure you’re familiar with it. The common factor here is that such giving is voluntary. What the current administration wants is the power to take what it wants for it thinks it needs, whether or not mine miss a meal or not.

Last point: If that hungry person comes to the back door and starts picking and choosing what he will and will not take, he’s dog food, and we’ll clean up later. I ask that you remember the record number of guns and ammo sold recently. For a good portion of society we are reaching the “deal-breaker” point where this government is intolerable, which, as you pointed out, becomes other people’s problems too.

All that aside, I’m glad you have some land you and Jing will be moving to. What can you grow there?

Lee

Reply from my Uncle (John):

I work with some of those poor. They are in a government program to put them with productive employees to show them good work habits, such as showing up on time and actually doing something. Most of them are poor not because of divine providence or bad luck. They are poor because of the choices they have made in life. They are primarily alcoholics or drug addicts who are going (or have gone) through recovery programs. I must disagree with your belief that they are not lazy. Most of the ones I have worked with are. They are there for the tax free paycheck. Nothing more. Even among those who are not, they do not want to stop the drugs or drinking and often get thrown out of the program. Some are actually getting paid for fake disabilities, which seems to be a badge of honor among them.

As someone once said, if you want someone to repeat a certain behavior, reward it. Thats why we have multi-generational welfare types who produce nothing but children, but oh yeah, a community activist can get them out to vote. That way they can vote themselves more of my money. Between state, federal, local, and all the add on taxes, I am over 50% taxed. For every dollar I earn, 50 cents is taken from me by force and given to someone who did not earn it, or at the very least did not have my permission to use my money. When is it too much?

As to my use of Karl Marx, like Dad used to say, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers and a bill like a duck, chances are what you're dealing with is a damned duck." Good old Dad.

Ok, I'm done. I have to get some sleep so I can put in my 4 hours for me and four hours for someone who doesn't feel like it.

Reply by my brother (Leland)

It's very interesting to hear some of the reasons you think the poor are poor, bad work habits, drugs, poor choices. Its all just a function of social Darwinism to you isn't it? The Fact is 60% of the people who go Bankrupt in this country, do so because they can not afford their health care costs. That can happen to any one of us. No one gets to decide the genes they are born with. I could get sick tomorrow and have my insurance denied, because I failed to mention that my father has a history of heart problems. It doesn't matter that he did not exercise regularly, and his life choices did not reflect mine. The amount of money flowing from our Corporations to the law makers is atrocious. The entire system is set up to redistribute wealth to the already rich(Yes, right wingers, we already have a system in place for the redistribution of wealth).

You are misdirecting your anger at the wrong class. Take a look at the median incomes for Americans since the Reagan administration. Your money is not going to the poor. It is going to the rich. They cut income taxes from 70% (admittedly high) to 35%!! Telling us all the while that the benefits would trickle down. Well its been nearly 30 years, what do those median incomes tell us about their economic theory? Complete bull shit. There is class warfare going on, and the rich have convinced you that they are on your side. The top 10% in this country receive 42% of the income according to the Library of Economics and Liberty. We are nearly back to the decadent levels of the 20s. The top 5% own 57%!! of all available wealth. They fought tooth and nail to deregulate our financial system, and when they manage to fuck it up again, seeking what to normal citizens are high risk investments. The corporations are found to be to big to fail and its the Poor and Middle Class who have to foot the bill so the entire world economy doesn't melt down, and then they still fight for more deregulation!! We had strong regulation from the 30s until the 80s and how many financial crisises did we have? NONE. But since the 80s we have been jumping from one to the other. Bust, then bail out, bust then bail out, bust then bail out. If you think it won't happen again without serious regulatory changes, you are fooling yourself. The rich are not better workers, and they certainly don't make better choices. They are not the cream of the social crop. They just happen to be who the system is set up to reward. I work with many poor people too, and not one of them is addicted to drugs or alcohol, commit fraud or fake disabilities. They are people who raise kids with autism and work 2 full time jobs while raising a family and they wear that as a badge of courage. But our system is set up to kick them in the teeth for the rest of their lives. The sad part is few of them know it, if the poor had any inkling of how good the rich have it. They would all register to vote.

And please spare me the Marxist rhetoric, there is not one truly capitalistic society on this planet (or even close to one), if your calling us "ducks" you're calling the whole world "damned ducks". Christ, are we living in the 50s? "Sir, are you a member of the Communist Party?" Give me a break.

Reply by my Uncle (John):

Not calling you a duck. I am calling people who think I owe them a living ducks. I am calling the people who think they have a right to the fruits of my labors ducks. I am calling people who think it is my job to pay for their damned kids ducks, when I didnt even get the piece of ass. I'm calling people who dont hold my private propery sacred and think they can use the government to take it any time they want ducks. I'm calling the people who tell private businesses they cannot allow smoking or have to put wheelchair ramps in strip clubs ducks. I am calling the people who vote to raise taxes on other people ducks. Im calling people who think hard work and good choices are passe, and the government is the source of prosperity ducks. I am calling the guys who think the wino passed out in his own puke has equal value to someone who pays his bills and takes care of his family a duck.

Mostly I am calling the people ducks who think whats mine is rightfully theirs, and the Constitution is a living document, subject to the interpretation de jour.

My money is only going to the rich if I buy something from them. The poor are taking my money and giving me nothing, the government is giving me damned little. You see the waste all the time, as I do now and did in the military.

It doesnt matter how much the rich earn. Their money is theirs. As long as there is fair competition (granted, there isn't), they can earn whatever they want. Good for them. This is America.

Social Darwinism? I like it!

I agree the government is corrupt, but the answer is not to make it bigger or richer, or to allow it even more power.

But whatever. I'm done with this.

Reply by my dad (Lee):

Just curious, Oh eldest son…where do I find your stats?

Oh eldest dad

Then he Dad/Lee added:

Y’know, It doesn’t seem as if Leland and Johnny are all that far apart on what the problem is…just the solutions…

An email my boss sent me

My boss sent me an email, he told me I could rebut it for 1 min, which I thought was unfair because the composer of the email obviously took longer to write it than that. I did however try to keep it as short as possible. I'll post the email first, then my response at the bottom. Let me know what you think. :)

Subject: FW: C'mon, that will never happen in America !!!

What would you say if I gave you 11 reasons why the elections in 2010 will be the most important in the history of the United States ? 1. What if I had told you in October 2008, before the last presidential election, that before Barack Obama's first 100 days in office, the federal government would be in c ontrol of both the mortgage and the banking industries? That 19 of America 's largest banks would be forced to undergo stress tests by the federal government which would determine if they were insufficiently capitalized, so they must be supervised by the government? Would you have said, "C'mon, that will never happen in America." 2. What if I had told you that within Barack Obama's first 100 days in office the federal government would be the largest shareholder in the US automakers GM and Chrysler? That the government would kick out the CEO's of these companies and appoint hand-picked executives with zero experience in the auto industry and that executive compensation would be determined, not by a Board of Directors, but by the government? Would you have said, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 3. What if I had told you that Barack Obama would appoint 32 Czars, without congressional approval, accountable only to him, not to the voters, who would have control over a wide range of US policy decisions? That there would be a Stimulus Accountability Czar, an Urban Czar, a Compensation Czar, an Iran Czar, an Auto Industry Czar, a Cyber Security Czar, an Energy Czar, a Bank Bailout Czar, and more than a dozen other government bureaucrats with unchecked regulatory powers over US domestic and foreign policy. Would you have said, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 4. What if I had told you that the federal deficit would be $915 billion in the first six months of the Obama presidency - with a projected annual deficit of $1.75 trillion - triple the $454.8 billion in 2008, for which the previous administration was highly criticized by Obama and his fellow Democrats. That congress would pass Obama's $3.53 trillion federal budget for fiscal 2010... That the projected deficit over the next ten years would be greater than $9 trillion. Would you have said, "C'mon, that will never happen in America !" 5. What if I had told you that the Obama Justice Department would order FBI agents to read Miranda rights to high-value detainees captured on the battlefield and held at US military detention facilities in Afghanistan. That Obama would order the closing of the Guantanamo detention facility with no plan for the disposition of the 200-plus individuals held there. That several of the suspected terrorists at Guantanamo would be sent to live in freedom in Bermuda at the expense of the US government. That our returning US veterans would be labeled terrorists and put on a watch list. Would you have said, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 6. What if I had told you that the federal government would seek powers to seize key companies whose failures could jeopardize the financial system. That a new regulatory agency would be proposed by Obama to control loans, credit cards, mortgage-backed securities, and other financial products offered to the public. Would you have said, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 7. What if I had told you that Obama would travel to the Middle East, bow before the Saudi king, and repeatedly apologize for America 's past actions. That he would travel to Latin America where he would warmly greet Venezuela 's strongman Hugo Chavez and sit passively in the audience while Nicaraguan Marxist thug Daniel Ortega charged America with terrorist aggression in Central America. Would you have said, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 8. Okay, now what if I were to tell you that Obama wants to dismantle conservative talk radio through the imposition of a new "Fairness Doctrine." That he wants to curtail the First Amendment rights of those who may disagree with his policies via internet blogs, cable news networks, or advocacy ads. That most major network television and most newspapers will only sing his phrases like state-run media in communist countries? Would you say, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 9. What if I were to tell you that the Obama Justice Department is doing everything it can to limit your Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms. That the federal government wants to reinstate the so-called assault weapons ban which would prohibit the sale of any type of firearm that doesn't require the shooter to pull the trigger every time a round is fired. That Obama's Attorney General wants to eliminate the sale of virtually all handguns and ammunition, which most citizens choose for self-defense. Would you say, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 10. What if I were to tell you that the Obama plan is to eliminate states rights guaranteed by the Tenth Amendment and give the federal government sweeping new powers over policies currently under the pro vince of local and state governments and voted on by the people. That Obama plans to control the schools, energy production, the environment, health care, and the wealth of every US citizen. Would you say, "C'mon, that will never happen in America!" 11. What if I were to tell you that the president, the courts, and the federal government have ignored the US Constitution and have seized powers which the founders of our country fought to restrict. That our last presidential election may have been our last truly free election for some time to come. I know, I know what you will say. "That will never happen in America!" If we don't do everything in our power to stop this madness in 2010... May God have mercy on our worthless souls. Pass this on to every freedom loving American you can.

Response/Rebuttal to What if I had told you points 1-11 in one minute or less, hopefully.

1. I would say that, the polices that caused the mortgage and banking crisis' have been in place for about a decade and we had been as a country, blissfully unaware of the impending breakdown of the system, hindsight is 20/20. I would also say that obviously those stress tests were insufficient.

2. I would say that blaming Obama for the mortgage/banking/auto issues is about as stupid as blaming Bush (W) for 9-11. The policies, attitudes and trends that caused these problems have been in place for a long time (see 1.). Also I would add that given McCain's plan for fixing the mortgage crisis, things would not be any better.

3. I would agree with you that it is pretty stupid.

4. See 1. & 2., plus I would like to add that the whole bail-out thing started before the elections even took place and that, oh yeah, McCain was for them also!

5. I would say that they are acting like honorable Americans, and that they are protecting themselves from accusations of mistreatment. They are keeping history's judgment in mind. As far as Bermuda goes, I'm uncomfortable with that as well, but what's our option? They can't live here, their countries won't take them back and we can't punish them by imprisonment or execution without them being found guilty. What's your solution? As for the veteran/terrorist, I need proof to believe it.

6. I would say you're exaggerating with the whole 'seize' thing and that the government has been regulating the financial system since, well, pretty much forever.

7. I would say that good relationships with our neighbors is vital, even if we don't agree with the way they run their government, it's theirs to run, not ours. I would further say that America is a great nation, but not a perfect one, and that if we have wronged our neighbors, we should apologize.

8.-11. I would say you are fear mongering.

I think it's time to start teaching my son about finances

Cody and I just finished watching a documentary called Maxed Out. It was about the credit crisis circa 2006. It detailed a few stories where people were under so much pressure to get the bills paid they actually committed suicide. In particular, I was effected by the stories of two different college students with similar plot lines. I was aware that credit card companies were taking up residence on college campuses and signing students up for cards, I just didn't realize how predatory the practice is. 18 year old students, not knowing anything about money yet, without credit histories and without jobs, are given credit cards with ridiculous limits. They then do what kids do and go a little crazy with them. Before they know it, they are in debt up their eyeballs and have no idea how to get out of it.

In general in our family it has been our practice that we try to keep the kids out of our financial business as much as possible. Being children, we really don't want them overburdened with adult concerns. They have the ability to earn an allowance, which they have to work for, and then they are allowed to spend their money pretty much as they wish. If they earn money outside the home, it's our rule that half of that money goes into their savings account, which they will then have access to when they turn 18, the other half is theirs to do as they please with. I thought we were doing pretty well with teaching them about being responsible with their money until I saw this movie. I realize now that I totally missed the credit angle.

Our oldest son is 16, and we're thinking it may be time to have him learn exactly what it takes to keep a household financially afloat. I think for our younger two, what we are doing already is fine, but at 16, Christian will be on his own in two years at the most, if he gets into Job Corps, it will be less than that. I want him to go into self-sufficiency with his eyes open. I will show him the money we earn, where it goes, and why we never seem to have any. I will do my best to explain the responsible use of credit, how you can use it and how it can use you if you're not careful. I don't want him to end up in a hole wondering what happened.

Budget friendly produce

This summer I've experimented with food co-ops. I've tried two different ones in my area. The first one is called the Community Food Co-Op based out of Salt Lake City. Here is a link to their September order form https://foodco-op.net/downloads/order-web.pdf. My experience with this food co-op has been pretty positive, although their meat quality is kind of hit and miss. Because of this when I order from this co-op, I tend to go with the harvest share with the nutty guys sampler add on (my very favorite part).

The second co-op I have found is called Bountiful Baskets, their website is www.bountifulbaskets.org. I believe they are based out of AZ, but they have many locations in UT and are now in WA as well. I prefer Bountiful Baskets to the Community Co-Op for a few reasons. First, they tend to have more variety with the produce and I like to try new things. Second, they have pick ups in my area every two weeks instead of every month. But mostly, they work much better with my schedule on Saturdays. Well enough in fact that I actually have time to volunteer at the Clearfield pick up location. My daughter actually quite enjoys getting up a little earlier and helping out too.

Both co-ops are good options if you are looking for a way to cut your grocery budget. The only real quality issue I've had so far is that sometimes the fruit is not quite ripe, an easy problem to solve. If you have it available to you however, my favorite place to get fruit and veggies is at my local U-Pick farm, ours is Day Farms in Layton. The quality is always much better that way. In fact I've become quite spoiled, I won't even buy grocery store corn on the cob anymore, after getting it fresh from the farm, the store stocked corn just seems to have no flavor. Also if you happen to be into canning, there's nothing better than canning food so fresh it was actually still growing that morning.

Anouncements

My kids' schools have adopted a new way of communicating with parents. The pre-recorded telephone call. In years past, I would get pre-recorded calls letting me know when one of my children was unexpectedly absent from class, now I get them for everything. When I say everything, I mean everything that the school or the district would have found important enough to send a paper home, they now send out pre-recorded calls.

In the days before President Obama's speech to our nation's youth was the worst. For two days preceding the speech my husband and I each received two phone calls a day from each school. Considering we have three kids, one in high school, one in jr high school, and one in elementary school, our cell phones were ringing off the hook with recordings of principals letting us know they would be having the children watch the speech and wanting to make sure we were okay with it. You have to listen to the whole message too, if you hang up, it just calls back again.

The old method left a lot to be desired as well, notes that maybe came home or maybe didn't, and when they did they may or may not have been read. After which they would end up in a ridiculously high stack of mostly other notes home but also old newspapers and junk mail before finally making it to the garbage. I agree that the whole thing was an inefficient form of communication and a huge waste of paper. There has got to be a better way.

My suggestion? When registering our children for school why can't we select the preferred form of communication. We could check the box for paper notification, telephone notification or my preferred form, email notification. Just a thought.

Expensive Tomatoes

I have learned how to can over the summer. I've successfully canned pints of apricot jam, pints of cherries in syrup, pints of pickled peppers, pints & quarts of dilly beans and quarts of tomatoes. I may have canned my last for the season though because under the weight of a full canner, my glass cooktop cracked.
I had been using a canner that was way too big for my stove anyway, it held 9 quarts and needed to rest on two burners in order to get the water boiling. It's not all the canner's fault though, from the looks of it the stove was chipped to begin with, somebody must have dropped something on it.
My Kenmore range is only about 5 years old and I have love, love, loved it since the day it was delivered. It's so easy to clean. I don't know for sure how many boil overs we've had in that amount of time but I'm sure one could accurately guess there have been many. With a coil top you have to lift the burner and clean the drip pan and often times lift the whole top up to clean the mess. With a glass top, just grab a towel. We were warned in the beginning that if the top broke, it would be just as expensive to replace as it would be to buy a whole new range. I guess that means I'm getting a new range. *sigh*
Anyway I'm not letting this happen again, I'm selling my too big canner to a lady I work with who's stove can handle it and I will buy a smaller one later. So let this be a lesson to all of you who would bite off more than they can chew (like me) don't load your canner up with more than your stove can handle or you will end up paying way more for those tomatoes than you intended to.